I have seen "Dead Poet's Society" dozens of times, so rather than tell you my feelings about it I think I will pose a number of questions. Feel free to pick up on any one of them -- or more than one. Or, if you are moved, ask and answer your own questions. I will number the questions for your convenience.
1) Nwanda -- punk or hero?
2) Is the suicide glorified in any way? Or do we as readers see that Neil has options and therefore the suicide is seen as rash and misguided?
3) Is the movie, taken as a whole, more celebration or indictment of the carpe diem philosophy espoused by Keating, Whitman, Thoreau, etc.? In the end you have a suicide, a firing, and an expulsion; but you also have self-empowerment (Todd), love (Knox), and a whole bunch of teenagers who are thinking more independently than they were before.
4) Even if we can agree that Keating isn't responsible for Neil's death, does he do anything wrong? Is he blameless?
5) Fun symbolism Department. Birds. At the beginning there is a montage scene of huge flocks of birds rising and turning all together (they're wrens, in case you were wondering). Then there is an immediate cut to the kids going down the circular stairway all together (first day of school), the same directional flow as the birds in the previous shot, bringing out the "flock mentality" of the kids. Later, Knox rides his bike through a huge flock of Canada geese on his way to see Kris jump into the arms of Chet. Upsetting the flock! Also, two scenes of kids walking in the courtyard provide bookend symbols in the movie. First you have Keating encouraging his students to walk to the pace of their own drummer (a Thoreau line!) with the Latin teacher watching from the teacher's lounge above; then, at the end, you have the Latin teacher with his students in the courtyard, walking in unison, reciting something they have memorized, following already made footprints in the snow, with Keating watching from the teacher's lounge above (they wave to one another). If the style of walking is an indication, it's back to normal now in the school.
More later, but this should get you started.
Nwanda is neither a punk nor a hero. It can be said that Nwanda exhibit’s “punkish” behavior throughout the movie, like the incident with the telephone, but overall, he does not cause trouble for the sole purpose of causing trouble. It is apparent that Nwanda acts in a punkish way because he wants to get expelled from the school. When Nwanda punches Richard, it shows his indifference to his enrollment in the school.
ReplyDeleteNwanda also displays a bit of heroic behavior, but overall he is not a hero. He is heroic in standing up to the school and not signing the paper to confirm Mr. Keating’s role in Neil’s death. (we assume) But again, his acts were somewhat out of self interest, and I do not necessarily believe that Nwanda would have stood up to the school if there was something to lose.
I do not believe that Neil’s suicide was glorified what so ever in the movie. Suicide is obviously a heartbreaking and serious topic. It is the number one cause of death for teens and adults under 35.But in most of these cases, suicide shouldn’t have taken place because almost every teen, including Neil, had many more options besides taking their own life. Neil’s suicide should not be glorified because he did not die for something, but as a result of something (his father’s oppression). Also, his suicide did not accomplish anything. The school did not change and Mr. Keating was fired.
I completely agree with Ben that suicide is not glorified in the movie. Neil had many more options and shouldn't have resorted to suicide. As shown when he opened the windows in his room, he had the chance to escape and run away from his dad. There is almost always something to live for. Neil had his whole life left in front of him and he was obviously an outstanding student and actor. I think one thing that could have stopped Neil from committing suicide was if his mom had given him some words of hope or encouragement, instead of just telling Neil, "to get some sleep." I also agree with Ben that his suicide didn't accomplish anything. The only thing it did was it gave the administration at Whelton a reason to fire Mr Keating.
ReplyDeleteThe only way in which Mr. Keating could be responsible for Neil's death would be that Mr. Keating gave the boys a tool which they didn't know how to use. I don't think this is a good reason to blame him though because it is necessary for the boys to know how to think by themselves and clearly none of the other teachers were going to teach the boys to do that. The other teachers looked down upon Mr. Keating's way of teaching because he was trying to teach the boys travel their own paths, to be different from the rest of society, and to not care what other people think. The other teachers at the school felt that it was alright to create robots who just did what the teachers told them to do.
Mr. Keating also told the boys to seize the day. For many of the boys, this made them much happier: Knox got up the courage to ask out Kris and Neil was able to find something that he really loved to do. When Neil's dad told Neil that he could not be in the play, Neil went and talked to Mr Keating. Mr Keating did the right thing and told Neil to talk to his dad and tell him how he really feels about acting. This is the right thing to do, but Neil comes back the next day and tells Mr. Keating that he talked to his dad. He is clearly lying.
He tried to instill in the boys how to seize the day properly. After Nwanda pulls his telephone stunt, Mr Keating tells him that it was a very stupid idea and that what he did was not what he meant by carpe diem. Keating says that he doesn't think getting expelled was seizing the day. Keating's message had a profound effect on the boys as shown in the last scene. Todd, who had been the most reserved of the boys throughout the movie, stood up on his desk to defend Mr. Keating. He was followed by the about half of the class. This scene showed how deeply Keating's message had impacted the boys.
It seems that I agree with several people that Neil’s suicide was a rash and stupid mistake. I don’t see how anyone could possibly consider that running away from a bad situation via bullet through the brain as a glorified death (unless they were really really goth). Neil had so many other options, but it seemed like the moment his dad said that he can forget about acting because he was going to military school, that he just gave up hope. Personally, if I were in Neil’s situation, I would have stole his dad’s wallet and left a note on the night stand saying, “#$%@ you! p.s. I stole your wallet.” Then I would run away and earn a full paid scholarship to an acting school somewhere in the city. I guess the only reason Neil didn’t do that was because he had been trained/brainwashed to be completely loyal to his father and he knew that if he were to run away then he would probably have to make contact with his father sometime in the future, which is something he could never bring himself to do, after he had blatantly disobeyed him. Besides that, I think the only other reason Neil committed suicide was because the movie didn’t really have reason to end at that point, so they wrote that into the storyline so that the movie could end on a sympathetic note.
ReplyDeleteAs for the question, “Do I think Mr. Keating is blameless?” I would say no, but he isn’t really to blame either. The only reason I would say that Mr. Keating isn’t blameless is because he gave Neil a new perspective on live. Neil started living carpe diem and when his father wouldn’t allow that, he killed himself. But trying to blame Mr. Keating for trying to teach his students how to live life to the fullest is so irresponsible that it disgusts me. If you’re trying to throw blame around, then sure you could blame Mr. Keating, but obviously his father is primarily to blame. You could even say that the acting department is to blame for giving Neil a part in the play. But ultimately, Neil was responsible for his own death.
In my opinion Nwanda is a hero in the movie. He is not ones typical hero because he does do some pretty unimpressive things, like tell the principal that god is calling him to tell him to have girls at the school, but in the whole bigger theme of the movie I think that he is 100% a hero. He stands up to society rather than conforming with it, which is one of the major themes of the movie. At the end of the movie Nwanda is the only student who is part of the dead poets society who does not go along with what the principal tells him to and save his own neck. He stands up to the principal and supports Mr. Keating, arguing his innocence. As a result, Nwanda is expelled from the school. However, I believe that his expulsion is glorified in the movie as a sign of non conformity.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I believe that suicide is not glorified but also not frowed upon in the movie. Suicide is Neal's method of non conformity to what his father wants him to do. Like I mentioned earlier, I think that non conformity to society is one of the major themes of the play and Neal's suicide id a representation for it. However, it seems as though Neal had other options besides killing himself to escape the demands of his father.
I think that the expression used throughout the movie, carpe diem, is celebrated throughout the movie. Without this saying guiding these young boys through everyday, they would have not had any of the experiences that they did. True there were some not too good things that were a result of the saying, but as a whole it gave the boys a confidence that they did not have before, and that I believe is celebrated in the movie.
Finally, I do not think that Mr. Keating is responsible for Neal's death in any way. He was simply teaching the boys the way and the beliefs of Thoreau and Whitman. Mr. Keating only pushed Neal to do acting because it was something that he loved. Also he had no idea that Neal had not spoken to his father about the whole thing.
In my opinion Nwanda is a little bit of a punk, even though he has the right thought process. He takes keatings words and advice too far. Keating even warns him that there is a time and a place to stick it to the man and to rebel, and there is a time where you should play it safe and smart and keep quiet. His actions have major consequences on the futures of his comrades and himself. Although Welton is filled with a bunch of tight ass teachers who do not allow the children to express themselves does not mean that you should ruin your life to defy them. Thinking freely and acting freely are two different things. Nwanda could have just as easily been a free thinker and could have calmly and rationally propose some changes to the school. He had to have attention though, he needed to be the school rebel and be the one who broke the rules. He used the club as a place to bring girls, he obviously did not feel as strongly or take the activities as seriously as the other boys did.
ReplyDeleteNeil was obviously a very sensitive and tortured young man. My guess is that these thoughts and feelings had been building up in him his entire life. To have your father beat down you creativity and control every aspect of you life must have been hell especially for a young man who's creativity was just bursting to break out. When Neil finally realized his true calling and the thing that would make him happy, his feelings began to change. Mr Keating's lessons helped let out the boy that had been supressed for so many years. He was finally become a happy, healthy and well-rounded person. To have that suddenly ripped away from him by the man that had been supressing his creativity all his life must have been devastating. Those old feelings would have come bubbling to the surface ten fold and ready to burst. Neil's act did not seem to be one of complete randomness, it does seem like he does it partly to prove a point to his father and to defy him in the worst way possible, but I also believe that Neil believed he had no other way out that would bring him true happiness. Although the suicide to us may seem a bit rash, to a man of that creativity and emotion, it was his last act of passion.
Keatings lessons and advice was completely rational and I believe that his philosophy of carpe diem helped take these boys out of the mold of Welton and make them into their own beings. They were able to be themselves for the first time and to go against the grain. Even though all of this was amazing and revolutionary, obviously no one else at Welton was prepared for this new way of thinking. It was the wrong place to do it, Welton needed to begin to change in order for the people inside it to change. I think the movie properly displays the celebration and the indictment of carpe diem. It portrays the pros of seizing the day, such as realizing your true self, getting the girl of your dreams, or participating in an activity you have been dreaming of. Yet also it illustrates the effects carpe diem can cause. Acting on impulse and living for the moment can have grave consequences, such as expulsion, termination, and as we saw in this film, death.
Welton was an extreme. No one was allowed to speak their mind, no one was allowed to do something that did not conform to the rest of the population. Yet this was the school that probably needed Keatings' ideas the most.
Keating definitely did not do anything wrong, if anything he did something very right. Everyone should be able to express their true selves and he tried to give them a safe environment where they would be able to. Unfortunately for Keating,his students took his teachings a little bit too far. They defied the rules and became so obsessed with carpe diem and defying the system that they lost the true meaning of his lessons, to be themselves and not be something for someone else. Keating could never have forseen the outcome of his actions. So to say he is completely blameless is impossible, if Keating had never taught them, it is unlikely that these events would have ever occured, the boys would have most likely continued in their exact and cookie cutter lives.
ReplyDeleteTo the bird references, I think it is pretty obvious how they are supposed to enhance the meaning of the film. In the beginning they show the birds conforming and moving together as one, never breaking stride. Then switching to the Welton boys, who at this point are the same as the birds, conformed, together, no individuality whatsoever. Then Mr. Keating comes in, he shakes things up just how he rides his bike and disturbs the birds, he disturbs the conformity of the boys and causes them to fly in different directions then where they were headed.
I want to start with the suicide. The first thing that I thought of when we saw the suicide scene in the film was "Things Fall Apart" (sorry, no underline capability) Many people saw Okonkwo's suicide was cowardly and weak. I saw it as an act of heroism, as I did Neil's death. Now I know that I'm going to be in the minority here, I already am, but I was then too. I think that these men were heroic because they did the only thing that they could to avoid their only other options.
ReplyDeleteLots of people think that Neil could have just run away, but running away would have been cowardly. And on the other side he could just do what his father told him, but that would be even more wimpy. If he caved and listened to his father he would be submitting to his father's will and giving up all of his new freethinking abilities and lose his individuality.
So I think that in this movie suicide is not necessarily glorified, but it is not seen as weak as it is in many other interpretations. I certainly saw Neil as the hero of the story, and I don't think that I would feel this way if his suicide was a sign of weakness.
I believe that the actual film-making itself portrayed the suicide as a tragically heroic sort of event. It is not directly glorified, but in this situation suicide is seen as an effect of the factors, not as a moment of weakness. The rest of the boys are certainly glorified in their respect of Mr. Keating, which is a direct result of Mr. Keating's free thinking message. The free thinking that the boys received is glorified and in turn Neil's refusal to submit to constrained thinking is seen as positive, although tragic.
Ohhh Mitchell, you are such a conformist.
ReplyDeleteNeil is a coward. How could he have been so close-minded to view suicide as the only solution for his problematic life? Obviously, he must be a coward by simple reasoning.
In the movie, Mr. Keating benefits each of the Dead Poet Society’s members individually. Neil becomes free, Rwanda becomes legit, and the last guy finds a girlfriend. The other members don’t really matter, yet they do. Mr. Keating’s sole goal was to create free thinkers. Mr. Keating accomplished his goal. Mr. Keating really accomplished his goal; he accomplished his goal so well that Neil committed suicide. Would Neil have ever bothered with thoughts of suicide before Mr. Keating? No, duh he would have been studying chemistry in his room as the weasel in the movie stated. What I’m trying to get at is that Mr. Keating made free thinkers in the world. The only problem is that the free thinkers were young, innocent, immature, naïve, childlike, overly trusting, gullible, instinctive, untrained, inexperienced, careless, nonchalant, credulous, foolish, susceptible, and overall not prepared for the concept of free thinking.
Let us indulge in Plato’s Allegory of the Cave (that’s right period 4 and 7, I just used the Allegory of the Cave card. Good luck topping this off). The prisoners are the students in the crazy college prep school. They are blind, living in darkness, and are having to learn through a filtered window of life, thus they are conforming to whatever nonsense is projected on the wall. Mr. Keating is the man that unchains the prisoners. In the beginning Mr. Keating is this super cool guy that whispers Carpe Diem. Once he unchains the kids and exposes the kids to the light, we view a totally different side of him: the bad side. The light is too strong for the prisoners who in the allegory, return to the cave. Likewise, the kids return to the school and begin conforming again. All the kids conform except for Nwanda and Neil. Nwanda is expelled which means he won’t go to an Ivy League college so his life is over. Neil commits suicide so he just didn’t think his life over that well.
Nwanda is a little bit of a punk and a hero. He doesn’t follow the rules and seems to always be looking for trouble. However, Nwanda displays a great example of a boy thinking for himself especially in such a hard environment to do so. Nwanda changes his name from Charlie to Nwanda in order to “exercises his right not to walk,”, he does a very good job of listening to Mr. Keating and nonconforming to the other behavior in the school.
ReplyDeleteI don’t think that suicide is glorified in Dead Poet Society. Neil could have run away or tried to talk to his parents and handled his situation better than he had. Neil’s decision to commit suicide was rash but I could see how he could think that was his only option. His father treated him very poorly and didn’t let him be who he wanted. Neil felt trapped and felt like he had no other option because he didn’t look at a larger picture and he never saw his life getting any better. During Neil’s suicide I kept thinking “why would he resort to this?” Neil must have been overwhelmed and took an “easy” way out by just killing himself. The film did not glorify suicide for me it made me unhappy because Neil had so many more options than killing himself.
Although there is a suicide, a firing and an expulsion the lesson of carpe diem is very important in DPS. The boys however may have been to young to understand when to use carpe diem and when to use common sense. It is important that the boys learn how to think more independently than they had before and Keating’s lessons may have a lasting effect on their lives.
Keating cannot be blamed for Neil’s death because he only tries to teach him how to think for himself and seize the day. Keating gives Neil good advice about his father and doesn’t tell him to lie, it is Neil that lies to his father after Mr. Keating told him to talk to his father. Mr. Keating also emphasizes that they must know when it is appropriate to seize the day and when it is not appropriate. The boys have been kept in this independent thinking free school and now their world has been opened up so much more than before. This is not in any way wrong and Neil’s issues with his father had been increasing and they had always had a hard relationship.
I believe that although Nwanda had good intentions and right ideas, he did not execute them correctly. For example, causing a scene and telling the principal that God is calling and says girls should attend the school. Nwanda should have talked to the principal or created an open forum about issues in the school. However, he should not just act on his actions and "seize the day" because that only makes one look like a fool if the end isn't worth it.
ReplyDeleteI feel that with all of the boys, actually, they used carpe diem to justify their actions, even when they weren't well thought through. Although it is crucial to "seize the day" and take risks, it is not acceptable to use the phrase to justify stupid or poorly thought out ideas, and there can be major consequences. For example, the senior class of 2009 "seized the day" by spraying graffiti all over the old dorms. However, their actions had consequences that involved a quick rush of the maintenance team to paint over the graffiti, due to the gala that was to be held the next night. That was not a good idea of the use of carpe diem and made the seniors look somewhat foolish.
Now I want to address the suicide. I don't think suicide is glorified in the movie, however I do believe that one can empathize with Neil. The idea of suicide does seem slightly rash because he could have run away. But many teens in today's society also have other options than suicide. Some just can't justify any other option because they feel alone in the world and don't want to deal with it anymore. We can see how Neil felt alone when his father reprimanded him for acting. If he can't be himself in his own home, where can he be himself? Many choose suicide because they see no other out, although the rational mind may think of a few other options.
I think that Keating is blameless and if anything, he did a good deed by helping the boys. He first helps them by showing them that conforming is not always the answer and shocks them all by tearing them to rip out the introduction of their poetry books. This seems ludicrous to the boys and they almost don't know how to act at first. Keating also helps the boys by teaching them about how people so easily conform with the "marching scene" on the courtyard. Keating told the boys to be their own true selves. THerefore, I don't think Keating did anything wrong in terms of guiding Neil to pursue acting. He did not tell Neil to lie, nor did he suggest that Neil lie to his father. Neil chose to lie to his father and was not persuaded by Keating at all to do so. Mr. Keating, in fact, told Neil to talk to his father about it and Neil refused. So when Neil committed suicide, that was not the fault of Keating in any way, shape, or form. Neil and his father did not have the same views on Neil's life, and Neil kills himself seemingly because his father wants him to be something he doesn't - a doctor. The pressure from his parents and his inability to fit in at home, as well as not conforming to he father's wishes, became too much for him to bear.
Lastly, the bird imagery. I feel that it clearly shows the birds in flock and the boys in school as originally all conforming to the school and its rules and regulations. This is also shown as the Welton boys, with no individuality, march just like Keating's boys, who were "beating to the pace of their own drummer." When Keating introduced nonconformity to the boys, it disrupted them, kind of like the flock, and then they finally became individuals.
I don’t believe that Keating is reasonable for Neil’s suicide. Neil decided to commit suicide because of his own unhappiness. Mr. Keating’s main goal as a teacher was to teach the boys to be freethinkers, such as Whitman and Thoreau. He wanted to make the boys realize that the do not have to conform to society. That is why he told the boys carpe diam or “seize the day”. He inspired the boys to take action and do something about their unhappiness at Welton. That is exactly what Neil did. Mr. Keating supported Neil’s acting because he knew it made Neil happy. However, Mr. Keating also told Neil not to go behind his fathers back and lie about it. Keating told Neil that he needed to tell his father about his feelings toward acting. Unfortunately for Neil, his father was not the most understanding person. Mr. Keating helped Neil discover something he loved to do, and then Neil’s father ripped that happiness away from Neil. It is my belief that Neil’s suicide was directly caused by his unhappiness and feeling of being “trapped” by his father and society. Because Mr. Keating was a non-conformist and supported Neil’s acting career, he became the scapegoat for Neil’s suicide.
ReplyDeleteI don’t really think the Dead Poet’s Society was solely about the evils of conformity. I think it was more about finding/becoming one’s own self by carpe diem and sticking up for what you believe in. In this case, I viewed Nwanda and Neil as the heroes of the plot.
ReplyDeleteYeah, Nwanda (my spell check would rather I call him “Wanda” lol) was a bit of a punk, as seen in the phone call scene, but he was a hero nonetheless. He wasn’t necessarily “seizing the day”, as he was seizing the moment, or seizing the opportunity to be true to himself and make his voice heard. There’s no doubt that he was cocky about it, but he spoke “in words as hard as cannon balls”, in the words of Emerson. He was also the only student to have the guts to refuse to sign the document to blame Neil’s death on Keating, and for his refusal, he was expelled. I consider that, in a way, to be martyrish (google says that’s a word, but I’m not convinced). To some and to most of the students in the movie, his action was stupid; to me he is the unsung hero. It is because of people like him that history is made. “History is rarely made by reasonable men.” –Zedd. (I don’t know who Zedd is, but I’ve heard this quote many a time).
I wish that the other students who stood up on their desks at the end of the movie had stood up for the truth that Nwanda had: that Keating was innocent. Surely the school could not have expelled them all, for it would have looked bad that for one, they were accepting such delinquents and two, that something wicked was happening between the boys at the school. If only they had had the brain and spine to stand up for Keating or go down with him, in rebellion of such wrongdoing.
In Neil’s case, he too was a hero. Heroes don’t have to fit the stereotypical “superman”. They don’t have to rescue a damsel in distress to be heroic. Fighting for what you believe in is heroism and although Neil commits suicide, it’s for this reason. This is why I believe that suicide is glorified in this film.
Suicide, for the most part, carries a negative connotation because it’s considered a “weak” escape from whatever the committer is running from. And to many, Neil’s decision to commit suicide is probably stupid because they believe he had other options, rather than the drastic taking of his own life. In my opinion, he didn’t. Neil knew that in all possible scenarios, acting would not be an outcome. Living would mean obeying his parents and becoming a doctor or running away and being forced by society into becoming a bum, living on the streets with nothing but a rusty knife as his only companion (no, I just made that knife part up lol). In all reality, it is not likely that Neil would have become anything near an actor on his own. He knew he would no longer be living for himself or who he was and that itself would be comparable to death. And even if he had chosen one of those possible scenarios, what would it have proven? That he was stronger than dying, but now would have to live without his sole purpose in life? No, a passion is much stronger than that. It becomes your oxygen and without it, you die! Maybe this concept is unfathomable to some because they have not yet themselves discovered something or someone to live for, but that doesn’t make it wrong or less serious. Neil died for the cause of making his voice heard: that he would rather die than surrender his sole.
Both Nwanda and Neil are martyrs in my eyes. They sacrificed themselves in light of something greater, for upholding truth and what’s fair. That, I consider heroic.